Not too long ago I wrote an article about sexual predators in the community and how we need to deal with these people through intolerance, confrontation, and talking about the perpetrators. In that vain I’d like to talk about the two most famous and well-respected living sexual predators in the international community, Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
To start Gavin and Yvonne Frost have stated that they will sue anyone for libel who makes false accusations about them (and I’m assuming that this is in regards to their spiritual pedophilia). So for full disclosure I will say that I have no evidence that either of them have ever committed a sexual crime. If I did I would be calling the FBI right now. What I do have, and why I consider them pedophiles, is a book authored by both Gavin and Yvonne Frost entitled the Witch’s Bible, and particularly the initiation ritual within that book, first published in 1972, republished as the Good Witch’s Bible in 1976, and republished again in a revised edition in 1999. Through out this article I’ll also refer to another article written by the Frosts, Going Public, and to articles they’ve posted on their blog, which so far are the only statements I have found from the Frosts themselves dealing with the allegations of pedophilia. Apparently there was also an article published in an issue of Green Egg, but I don’t even know which issue so finding it seems impossible.
To start, if you don’t know who Gavin and Yvonne Frost are they’re some of the most popular living authors inside of Wicca. They founded the Church and School of Wicca in 1969, and claim that they are the founders of the entire Wiccan religion (this goes hand in hand with claims that Gardner and Saunders did not practice Wicca and the Wicca religion didn’t actually exist until the founding of the Church of Wicca in ’69). They have authored numerous books on Wicca and have offered various correspondence courses in Wicca since the 70s.
The Frost’s have had a lot of controversy surrounding them for different reasons. They claim that just about every independent researcher on the subject is incorrect about Gerald Gardner founding Wicca and Raymond Buckland bringing it into the United States, as both of these acts were supposedly done by the Frosts. They were also against homosexuality and allowing homosexuals into Wicca, a position they later recanted. None of this crap really matters to me though. What does concern me is the biggest piece of controversy they’ve had, that they wrote an initiation ritual published in 1972 in the Witch’s Bible (and from what I hear also included in their correspondence course at one time) which encouraged pedophilia and incest.
Since then the Frost’s have remained unapologetic about the ritual. Most of their arguments in defense of the chapter are deflections that never address the real issue, the molestation of a minor.
The Frosts also have lots of powerful friends in the community. Notably the late author Isaac Bonewitz and owner and editor of Green Egg magazine Oberon Zell. They also have many detractors, such as author Raymond Buckland, author Lady Sheba, and author A.J. Drew, the last of which started a campaign against the Frosts because of that chapter a few years back.
So what did the Frosts write that was so appalling? The ritual is a bit different depending on if you’re male or female. It does however use the term child extensively, and it states that a child is ready for this ritual when they begin puberty, or rather when “the physical attributes of reproduction are present”. Drew claims that this includes children as young as ten years old, since a minority of children will begin puberty at this age. Most of us started puberty around twelve or thirteen though, and this is actually the average age. Bonewitz however made the claim that traditionally the age would be around fifteen or sixteen. Whatever the age is, the ritual is appalling.
To begin, the child is given a sponsor, which is usually the most recent initiate into the group of an opposite gender, however a special sponsor may be chosen if there is too large a difference in age or physique.
Prior to the ritual, at the youngest age possible, boys will have their penis circumcised and girls meanwhile will have their hymen broken, either surgically or at home by their mothers.
The girls are given two wooden phalluses (dildos) of different sizes and instructions on how to use them in order to prepare their vaginas for sexual intercourse over a period of one month. It’s also stated that they should be helped by their father or sponsor if they have any pain or difficulty using them.
The boys meanwhile receive instructions from their sponsors on how to have sex and what will be expected of them during initiation.
Then the children undergo a three day fast eating only bread, honey, and water. During that time they are shown a demonstration of two people having sex.
The ritual begins robed with some talk after which the initiate, a child with zero tolerance that has been starved for three days, is given a full glass of mead to drink. The child then disrobes, there is some more talking, and then they dance naked with their sponsor. After that the child and their sponsor leave the circle area and have sex with each other.
Some actual quotations from this chapter:
“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life.”
“The horror stories through which the Establishment attempts to downgrade this aspect of Wicca and the threatened terrible consequences of obeying natural instincts cause Wicca to more time and trouble in preparation for the sexual experience than of old.”
“At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony.”
“We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain.”
In 1999 (over twenty years after the book was first published) the Frosts added an introduction to this chapter, that among other things said that people shouldn’t be initiated in this way until they were 18. The actual disclaimer read “This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca. No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen.” Despite the fact that there is now a disclaimer, this ritual for children entering puberty was espoused by the Frosts in their book for over twenty years, and the disclaimer itself states that it was a practice taught in the early days of the Church of Wicca. The initiation ritual itself remains unchanged.
The introduction goes over some issues with later rituals in chapter four, but they eventually come back to the initiation ritual and their defense of it. In it they equate this initiation procedure to sexual education, and talk about how fathers can’t bathe their children without being accused of molestation.
You might think I’m making all of this up or quoting things out of context. After all, it seems unbelievable that people as well respected and famous in the community as the Frosts would ever have published something like this. So I would implore you to read the initiation ritual in The Good Witch’s Bible. Don’t buy their book, but the offending ritual, and the 1999 introduction, are available in their entirety at this website.
I’ve scoured the Internet looking for some sort of response from the Frosts that explains this chapter. I’ve been looking for somewhere where they say they were quoted out of context or the ritual was never meant to be performed. I haven’t found that. What I have found is a lot of deflection and a lot of attacks aimed at their accusers.
To start the Frosts claim that attacking them over this is a violation of the Wiccan Rede. That is laughable. I don’t personally like the Three-Fold Law and I don’t think it has any spiritual validity, but this is by far the most bullshit interpretation of it I’ve ever seen. It’s the idea that pointing out that someone has admitted to being a pedophile by writing a ritual for others to use which involves child molestation is somehow against the Wiccan belief to harm none. Fortunately I’m not obligated to follow any interpretation of the rede, but I’d say that raping children is a far greater violation than tattling on someone for raping children. The Frosts then go on to state that anyone who would attack them is not a real Wiccan or Pagan. I don’t believe that’s true, but if it were I think that most moral and sane people who aren’t child molesters would rather not be labeled a real Wiccan or Pagan if that involved allowing child molesters to do what they do.
In their article, going public, particularly the section Wiccan vs Wiccan the Frosts deflect and obscure the issue while discussing the controversy around the Witch’s Bible. The Frosts claim they teach sex magic, and that’s what people take issue with, and never bring up the fact that they encouraged the sexual initiation of children. They describe a ritual they did between consenting adults, and state that they couldn’t get away with such a ritual today because of the rumor mill and people trying to regulate consensual sex among adult Wiccans.
This is a common tactic employed by the Frosts. They claim they are being persecuted because people have hang-ups about sex magic, or are trying to regulate ritual sexual activity between consensual adults. They talk about how society has changed and parents can no longer bathe their children. This whole controversy has nothing to do with sex magic, skyclad practices, or any kind of sexual activity between consenting adults. There are a lot of people in the community doing this, and no one gets upset about them. In fact even though Wicca may have become a bit more conservative since the free love consequence free sexcapades of the 70s, it is still incredibly liberal in terms of the general acceptance of alternative sexual practices among members. What this issue has always been about is the ritual sexual initiation of children which they wrote in a published book which is still in print today.
The Frosts also state that this controversy has actually caused their book to be more popular and sell more copies. While researching this article I came across a blog post written for parents about common tactics used by pedophiles so they could educate their children. A pedophile responded by thanking the author for giving him new ideas to prey upon children with. The author remarked that this is a common tactic used by pedophiles, to state that people speaking out against them and educating the general public about them are somehow helping them to try to scare the person into silence. It seems as if the Frosts are using the exact same tactic here.
The Frosts also responded to these allegations in a series of blog posts. In the first post, Witch Wars and their Cost, they label AJ Drew’s campaign against them as a Witch War. They also claim that these attacks directed against them harm their ability to do good in the community. The Frosts have done good in the community in the past, I won’t argue that. But that doesn’t make them exempt from being punished for their horrific acts, nor should we allow people to do horrific things because they sometimes do good things. In fact I don’t want these people doing good acts in the magical community. I don’t want them to be a part of the magical community. I don’t even want them to be a part of American society. Unfortunately they so far haven’t been caught breaking any laws, so there’s nothing that can be done about that.
The Frosts end the blog post by saying that the people who really gain from this are the Christian right wing Bush-run theocracy. Crazy liberal bullshit, but I would have to counter that the thing that is letting the Christian right win are self proclaimed Wiccans who write rituals that involve child molestation, not responsible Pagans who speak out against them.
Their second article on the subject, Frost and Sex – Intacta, claims that the controversy is due to their encouragement of breaking the hymen surgically. It’s filled with historically inaccurate facts, but the main point here is the controversy has nothing to do with the hymen breaking, it has to do with the child molestation.
The final article they post deals with teenage sex education. Once again they try to label their initiation ritual as teenage sex education and an introduction to sex. I guess molesting children is sort of sex education, but they never explicitly mention that is the sort of sex education they’re talking about.
From there their information becomes insane. At one point they claim that 90% of teenage girls in this country are single moms. Think about that, 9 out of 10 teenage girls have children. That statistic is completely unbelievable to anyone who has ever gone outside. Keep in mind that teenage means 13-19, so even if all of the girls aged 14 and older have children, a large number of 13 year olds also have to have children to make this statistic work. Keep in mind too that married teenagers with children are part of the 10%, not the 90%, since they aren’t single moms. Seriously though it’s insane to suggest that even 50% of the 19 year olds in this country have children, because if you just talk to some people in that age range it becomes clear that isn’t true.
The Frosts then go on to discuss pregnancy parties where boys and girls get together in an orgy to do all the sex they can stand so the girls can get pregnant and have no idea who the father is. This is an urban myth. This is not happening. There are very few teenage girls out there who want to get pregnant. There’s definitely not enough to support this kind of party in one single location, let alone an epidemic of these parties sweeping the nation. Parties like this (and other sexual activities like rainbow parties) are common urban myths, but there’s never been any proof that they actually happen. For the most part kids are kids and although they may sometimes have sex they are not that sexually active on their own. They tend to be more conservative, explorative, shy, and afraid than adults. Orgies are largely the domain of old and unattractive people, and for most sexually active teens the scariest thing in the world is ending up with a baby.
All of this is a scare tactic though designed to make us think society will fall apart unless we embrace a more open method of sexual education and permissiveness for our children like the sex education taught by the Frosts which they have received so much controversy for. What is never explicitly stated though is that the method they endorse involves child molestation. It involves a father teaching his young daughter by using a dildo on her. It involves the child being shown live sex acts. And it involves the child being intoxicated and then expected to fornicate with another child in a ritual setting.
Some people argue that going after the Frosts like this is bad for the community. After all we have been accused of the ritual abuse of children, and coming out and saying that two of the most revered members of the community are ritual child abusers sort of makes all of the Christian fanatics right.
I’d argue that isn’t the case. Damage has definitely been done to the magical community here in this regard, but that damage was perpetrated by the Frosts when they wrote a ritual that involved the ritual abuse of children. However at this point what is damaging us is continuing to respect these people, allowing them to hold a position within the community, and trying to hide what they’ve done.
Here’s an interesting fact. Among Catholic priests there is a lower percentage of pedophiles than in the general population. Your child is far safer from sexual abuse being left alone with a Catholic priest you know than with a complete stranger. There are pedophiles everywhere and in every religion, and from time to time they’re going to show up in the magical and Pagan communities. The problem with the Catholic Church was not that their religion somehow caused their religious leaders to become pedophiles. The problem was that once the pedophiles were identified, the Church tried to hide it, and in doing so supported and encouraged the behavior.
Every time a Christian fanatic wants to call us all child molesters, the Frosts have given them a book they can point to. A book written by a pair that claim to be the founders of Wicca, who are regarded by many as elders, who are respected in the community, and who are positioning themselves in a place of power and authority within the national and international communities.
What we need to do is say that these people are sick and deranged fucks who have appropriated aspects of our spirituality and its name and perverted it, that we do not approve of these people, we do not respect them or their teachings, and we don’t want them as part of our community.
Some others have also claimed that although the Frosts published the ritual they do not know of it ever having been practiced, that no one has ever been hurt by it, and that all posts like this do is smear the good name of two respected Wiccan elders. I’d counter that just writing the ritual hurts all of us in the community, but there actually is an instance of rape within a Frost chartered church.
There’s a fellow named John Todd who went back and forth between being involved in various alternative religions and working for Jack Chic coming out against those same religions before finally being imprisoned for rape and child molestation. He’s clearly a very sick and deluded individual. In the 1970s, before all of the raping and in between periods of working with Chic, he opened an occult bookstore and got a charter for his group from the Frosts’ Church of Wicca. An underage girl in that coven reported to police that she was forced to attend rituals skyclad and engage in oral sex with Todd. Gavin Frost and Bonewitz supposedly investigated the incident and revoked the Church’s charter after discovering numerous instances of underage sex and drugs. This is the proper thing to do in a situation like this, but it should be noted that the Frosts only took action after the activities had been reported to police and an official investigation was being done by law enforcement.
It’s important to note too that although Todd had a history of psychological issues prior to starting that coven (which was why he was discharged from the military), he was not known to have raped or molested anyone prior to working with the Frosts’ teachings and starting a group with their charter. Now we have a psychologically unstable and delusional person who has not only been allowed a position of leadership in their group but has also been handed an initiation ritual that involves child molestation. Surprise, surprise, he ends up raping young girls. So yes, some people have definitely been hurt, the members of John Todd’s coven.
And just because no one else has ever been caught it doesn’t mean that this initiation ritual has never been used by any other group. Not only was this presented as an initiation ritual for members of the Church and School of Wicca, which has many members, but it was also printed in a book which could be bought by non-initiates who wanted to learn and practice Wicca. It’s hard to believe that Todd is the only instance where this happened. In fact there have been claims of this ritual occurring outside of Todd’s group, although I haven’t found any evidence besides hearsay.
So what can be done about the Frosts? When Mr Drew tried to expose the Frosts years ago he went about it in a very extremist fashion, and made a lot of enemies because of it. His attacks on innocent third parties in the matter for not fully supporting him, burning effigies of the Frosts, and his own issues with certain members of the community gave the Frosts, and their supporters, the very fuel they needed to deflect the issue and turn the situation into an attack against Mr Drew, and by proxy anyone who came out against them as mindless supporters of Mr Drew. He managed to make the community a little bit more aware of the Frosts, but did almost as much to hurt his cause as help it.
What we need to do is simply not tolerate these people and speak out against them. This means not supporting them financially, not supporting companies that support them, and speaking out against them. To do this we can:
1. Obviously don’t buy any book written by Gaven and Yvonne Frost and don’t buy correspondence classes from their School of Wicca or buy any books published by their publishing label Godolphin Books.
2. If you notice their book in your local occult bookstore, ask to speak with the owner or manager and inform them about Chapter IV of the Witch’s Bible and give them the relevant information they need to look it up. Just because they own an occult bookstore doesn’t mean they’re all knowing and have read everything they sell. Also tell them that if they continue to carry books written by the Frosts you’ll have to take your business elsewhere, and you’ll suggest to your friends that they do the same. Magical communities are very small and brick and mortar bookstores operate with low profit margins, so even a boycott by a small fraction of the local community can bankrupt these small stores.
3. If you notice their books in a local chain store, like Borders, ask to speak with the manager and inform them that the Frosts have published pedophiliac literature in the past (if they actually carry the Good Witch’s Bible, have the manager read some of the offending passages). More than likely they’ll claim they have no control over ordering, so ask for the number of someone who does. You may get bounced around a lot, but that’s good. The more employees you bring this up to the better. One complaining customer may not make a difference, so the more waves each of us can make in these companies the better our chances of getting these authors removed from store shelves. Be sure to mention your spiritual path and the fact that you’re a customer of their occult/metaphysical section. Also mention the fact that if they continue to carry these titles, you will be boycotting them and suggest to your friends that they do the same.
4. Write to the publishers of their books and tell them that you’re going to boycott all books published by them if they continue to publish titles by the Frosts. Right now the Frosts are published by their own label Godolphin Books, which is pointless to write to, just boycott it, Weiser Books, and Reward Books, which I can’t find any online information about.
5. If you notice an online retailer you use, like Azure Green, is carrying their books, write to them and inform them of the material in chapter IV of the Good Witch’s Bible and tell them that you’ll take your business elsewhere if they continue to carry this book.
6. Do not hire or allow the Frosts to speak at any event you have control over. Also don’t attend any events that they are appearing at. If you notice they will be speaking at an event near you or one that you’d like to go to, contact the event organizers and inform them that you will not be attending because of the Frosts and tell them you’ll be recommending your friends do the same.
7. Talk about the Frosts and Chapter IV with your friends. Talk about it at any groups you attend in your local community. If you have a website or blog, write a post about the Frosts and chapter IV of the Witch’s Bible. Try to convince others not to support the Frosts and to join you in your efforts against them.
8. Remember to always be polite when dealing with people. Use words such as please and thank you and speak with a nice tone, even when someone disagrees with you or refuses to comply. Don’t expect stores and publishers to stop supporting these authors just because you complained. It’s only once a lot of people complain that these companies will take notice. And if you get angry with them, they’ll ignore you. If you’re nice they may not instantly do what you want, but they’ll make a note that someone was upset.
9. If someone does try to argue with you and defend the Frosts, simply point out chapter IV of the Witch’s Bible. Show them exactly what it says. The ritual itself is indefensible and the Frosts openly claim they wrote it. Don’t be dragged down into name-calling, making personal attacks against Frost supporters, or advocating physical or magical attacks against the Frosts. That is the sort of thing Mr Drew did, and it ultimately hurt his cause.
118 thoughts on “The Frosts – Pedophiles in our Midst”
Good on you for writing this. Very brave and apparently well intentioned.
However, to improve this please provide more references. I am not American nor wiccan. Also the stuff about teenage sex and rainbow parties got a bit wooly and hearsay-y.
Power to your cause.
I’m not sure what kind of sources you are looking for. I put a link to the ritual in question, and that’s the main focus of my claims. Most of the other stuff comes from posts on their personal blog which I won’t link to because I have a thing about not linking to blogs of people in the community I don’t care for. I feel it’s an endorsement of their practices and drives traffic to their site. If you’re interested in their blog though you should be able to find it easily online though.
Earlier you wrote, “[…] this is a common tactic used by pedophiles, to state that people speaking out against them and educating the general public about them are somehow helping them to try to scare the person into silence. It seems as if the Frosts are using the exact same tactic here.” Now you turn around and say, “I have a thing about not linking to blogs of people in the community I don’t care for. I feel it’s an endorsement of their practices and drives traffic to their site.”
Contradict yourself much? LOL
That’s not really a contradiction, he’s saying it’s a common tactic of pedophiles to try and claim people just want to silence them. He then pointed out their contradiction of this logic. He never seemed to claim that not linking to blogs (if that is “silencing them’ which it isn’t) is somehow evil.
If you refuse to respond to me and advertise my personal blog, then you are attempting to silence me and therefor a hypocrite.
you people are narrow minded assuming biggots. like seriously because you dont approve of someones religious beliefs and practices and because its against the law to stone/drown/burn us at the stake anymore you degrade and make false accusations and belittle a group of people who are nothing but peaceful and wise not brainwashed and full of contempt for diversity. WELCOME TO OUR WORLD BITTTTCCCCCHHHHHEEEEESSSS All u have to say is the same thing that christian tyrants have been saying 4 hundreds of years people are sick of it. people want the truth and were hear to give it to them. we have shown that we will not fade. we will not falter. we will not crawl in a hole a die we are back and we here to stay.i am catfish the aqua and i will not allow this tyranny to continue.
I don’t care what your religion is. Your rights end where the rights of others begin. And children have the right to be unmolested.
I thin they just don’t like the idea of having sex with children. and the chapter uses the words ‘the child’ a lot. I’ve read it. (and don’t go justifying sex with children to me. you can’t and I’m bisexual, practice BDSM, live in a triad relationship, am poly….and I find sex with children deplorable)
He has given his crappy references: A chapter about a practice being taken out of text and out of time.
At the time this was done, it was not uncommon to be 16, drunk and having sex. To put that in today’s world and crucify them for it is the act of a moron.
16 year olds having sex is not the same as an ADULT having sex with an underage child. Saying “these kids already have sex” is another common excuse for child abusers and rapists. People who abuse children (and those who try to defend it) are the absolute scum of the earth. Hardly even people but a virus in human form.
Do you EVER miss the point!
The article is condemning them for Talking about something that went on when it was not an unusual thing.
Why not just condemn frontiersmen who often had brides that were 13?
Are they doing this TODAY? No. In fact, they have explained themselves MANY times for people like you who can’t get your head around time.
Have they even DONE this at all? Who knows? I haven’t seen it, you haven’t seen it, the articles says plainly it has not been seen, but that doesn’t stop you from attacking them does it?
Attacking them? Like they attacked children? It specifically says “when a child hits puberty” which is not 16. These were not frontiersmen, it was not a “normal practice” hence why they tried to cover it up with secrecy.
It’s disturbing how angrily you defend the abuse of children. I hope somebody keeps an eye on you.
They wrote the ritual. This is not some recovered lore from days past. The 1960’s is not ancient history.
Greetings to you Rob:
It has been many years since I wrote a small article in the magazine that Herman Slater put out. In it I reviewed three correspondence courses, one of them being the one run by the Frosts. I would not recommend them to anyone at that time nor would I at this time. BAD news to any serious student was my opinion and I cannot see anyone ever wanting to take that course and if they did, to ignore 90% of what they wrote.
Herman did not care for these people and yet, they are still functioning in the arena to this day. Whenever I see a book outlet carrying any of their books, I still continue to do business elsewhere.
The Craft has had its ups and downs, it does not need this type of stuff to further blacken its name.
Wishing you well.
BB. Lady Heather, formerly of the Magical Childe for over eight years.
Somehow I made one error on the previous comment, I meant to say the magazine was Earth Religion News. It was an odd little thing but a lot of things were odd back then. Remember(but you are probably too young) that it was a time of some pretty horrific Witch wars.
Even though Herman is gone, I did inherit one thing of his, his sword and still have it tucked safely away. We had many arguments about the Craft, me being of the very Traditional mode and Herman in the Gardnerian camp but things were never boring. Enough said, this old Witch has seen a lot and I hope to see more, but not the way things are now with the new ones having no discipline or training, at least not in my eyes. You EARN the Craft, it is not given to you without paying the price of hard work and dedication.
Thank you so very much for your comment about my age :) Older members of the community keep assuming I grew up with them and younger members keep looking at me funny when I make pop culture references to things like the Masters of the Universe. It’s very disheartening.
I’ve known about the Frosts for years. When I first started actually looking into Wiccan works the Frosts were recommended to me by a friend as one of the major Wiccan Authors. I looked at a couple of their books, not the Witch’s Bible though, and didn’t really think the information was very valuable so I stopped reading them. I really don’t care either way about badly written works, except for the fact that I sometimes spend money on them. They tend to make up the majority of works on any given subject.
It wasn’t until more recently that I came across their names again and again on watch lists. Since they did hold such high regard and were so well defended by major figures in the community I figured it was probably an exaggeration. I was really surprised when I finally read the ritual, because I can’t understand how anyone can publish something like that and still be respected inside of any community. Just about everyone I’ve shown that ritual to has been disgusted by it and so far all of the people I know who had been recommending their books were unaware of it and stopped recommending it after I showed it to them.
I think the way to get the Frosts and their works taken out of the community is showing people the actual ritual, and to keep bringing it up in a polite manner. They have a lot of reverence and they’ve done a lot of deflection to make it seem like this is about people who are really upset with them over sex magic or with liberal views on sex education, and not about encouraging child molestation.
As someone who has spent most of his spiritual path doing what seemed like it would be the most fun and avoiding work, I can’t say I fully agree with your ideas about training and discipline. Besides I don’t think its ever been the duty of the young to be trained and disciplined. It’s their duty to innovate and attempt seemingly impossible feats completely unprepared and succeed or fail at them. When they get a bit older it will be their duty to be trained and disciplined, and complain about the younger folks lacking any training and discipline :)
Lady Heather may I ask what the 3 correspondence courses were – what group or clan or whatever you wish to call it.
And what did you think of the other two.
Who were the other two?
I applaud you. Your article is succinct and well thought out. Im going to a Gathering in a few weeks were they will be talking for the weekend. Half the community is outraged and the other half support them. Ive been researching for days. Until this Ive never heard of them and he isnt in any of the historys. Its all very sad. But Im not staying away. They said they would answer questions on all of this and Im bringing the hard questions. And if Im not satisfied with the answers. Well truth will out either way.
Once again this is a great article. I have read a good bit of Wiccan and Pagan materials but actually I am surprised that I have nothing by the Frosts. Surprised and relieved. I do remember reading some books at an occult store and thinking “B.S,” and putting it down.
You need only take a walk down the Anthropology path to see this ritual is B.S. It was obviously written by modern persons. There are indeed rituals of initiation in many cultures that involve sex. Mostly these rituals will be for persons who will devote themselves to sexual magic/ritual for life. In the way nuns join the convent and are virgins, then there are cultures that have a certain few women reserved for this type of magic or ritual. However these initiations are only for the very few who have proven themselves to be devoted. Not applied to every person who wishes to participate in the religion. Also if you study these rituals a bit you will see what is in the Wiccan Bible makes no sense to anything else like it. There would be no reason from a ritual standpoint to break the hyman ahead of time for instance, in fact it is usually quite the opposite where rituals are concerned.
At one point there may have been such a ritual in the Pagan religion. However you would have to realize that most likely women in the north went through puberty around 15 or 16, not 13 to 14 like the countries near the equator. Also there is a trend for the last 100 years for girls to begin puberty younger and younger. I have to admit that if I myself found olde manuscripts that suggested such a ritual I would certainly be shocked. And I would certainly have to do much research and consult many experts before printing it in a book for the masses. I would try to be responsible in explaining it to people. However, I really have to read this ritual and think it was written by a male pedaphile. It really makes no sense from a woman’s perspective in any way.
As a man, I can say that this sort of stuff makes no sense from a normal man’s perspective in any way either. I’m a assuming your a woman, and I wouldn’t expect this to make sense to you, because I’m assuming you’re not a sexual predator.
There are female child molesters, and they do sometimes act just like the men. Some women are also brought into child molestation through the sexual preferences of their husband or boyfriend. I’ve also seen a lot of sexually predatory behavior orchestrated by women in the community.
Women shouldn’t be thought of as beyond this sort of behavior. That, and an attitude that it isn’t so bad when a woman does it, or when a woman does it to a man or boy, has allowed a lot of women to get away with doing this sort of stuff. In this case in particular there is a woman and a man, and the woman here is just as guilty as the man.
they break the hymann so that sex can be enjoyed the first time and not be tramatic. having personally met them and my claircognacent ability helping me they are very honest hardworking and forthright people. from the outside looking in it is easy to judge.
Leave the kids alone. It’s not your place to decide what a child’s first sexual experience should be. That is abuse and exploitation. I don’t care if you met Gavin and Yvonne or not. I only remember them as hucksters who advertised witchcraft courses in the back pages of scandal sheets like the National Enquirer. Big whoop. Every religion has charlatans, and it looks like you fell for two of them. It’s very disturbing that you are advocating pedophilia. And yes, I have every right to judge them. I never hurt a child.
My common sense is telling me you are turned on by the thought of this ritual. Obviously I cannot appeal to your compassion or morality as you appear to be lacking same. So just let me remind you; before you touch a child (and yes; a 112-year-old with breasts is still a child), that sex with a minor is at the VERY LEAST statutory rape. And you strike me as a blowhard who attacks from the shadows…somewhat cowardly. ..and I don’t think you would survive hard time.
The above post references Christopher aaron turner’s posts, NOT the blog author, with whom I agree100 poo ercentm
Re: “a 112-year-old with breasts is still a child” … 112?
Well I am glad to know there are some men with understanding. You would be right in your assumptions
You are absolutely right. Sexual predators are both male and female. I find societies attitude to women who are sexual predators to be ignorant, in general. Although I realized that there are many men in the magickal community who are sexual predators. I didn’t realize there were as many women. But I should have realized as the occult tends to attract many people with “issues”.
It would seem that there are some who have churches, magickal groups, wiccan circles, and the like who’s only purpose is for sexual abuse both of children and adults. I guess we are wise to inspect closely before signing up.
It does not end with the Frosts… Are you aware of this site?
[Site link removed by admin]
Sorry I’m only now catching this.
Please don’t put links to sites that encourage or promote pedophila on my blog.
Hey Rob, I’m interested in the learning of Wicca/Witchcraft and I would be very appreciative if you could tell me some websites or link me to a few websites that could kickstart my learning. Also, how do I find an occult bookstore?
I suggest Pagan.about.com for a very basic (but useful) introduction; neopagan.net for the heavier and more academic oriented stuff (it also has good booklists on various Pagan paths and related subjects). Your local occult store is probably called “—— Books” where the blank is some occult-y word like “Aquarius” or “Cauldron” or something. But http://www.azuregreen.net is an excellent online store. Happy reading!
I’m new to Wicca and the person who is schooling me in it specifically said not to read that book. She said it was made by sick weirdo’s and it does nothing but make Wiccan’s look bad. Now I know why she said that.
i shouldn,t say this for it might seem that i would defend someone who,s life service speaks for them selves but having an objective view i can see 2 things very clearly 1 all there years of service to the occult is nether apprsiated of fully recognized by the evangilized generation or 2 the shock value isnt realy sean for monetary proffit
anyhow i shant say anything harmfull of them seems that thers a diffrence in values or understanding hopefuly that will work out and folk stop bashing them who blazed the trails before ya and get along together God bless
The contributions of the Frosts to the occult community are more self-hype than anything else. As for Wicca, the real trailblazers were people like Gerald Gardener, Alex Saunders, Raymond Buckland, and Scott Cunningham. All of these folks have had their contributions to Wicca dismissed by the Frosts, and in most cases the Frosts have misappropriated these achievements to themselves. Outside of bringing pedophilia into Wicca, the Frosts’ biggest contribution would be their intolerance of homosexuality.
i am in agreement there as i said before it is to judge from outside the window we should not be fighting each other our fight is with who it always has been if you dont know then you never will.
You called everyone here “bitches”, and now you’re preaching about not judging? Hypocrite.
Christians and other religions are not as dangerous to us as the oedophilic teachings in the Frost book, and certainly not as dangerous as you. You are displaying symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia
Blazing the trails before us doesn’t give them the right to sexually abuse children. Stop justifying what they did!
How can anyone deny their guilt, it’s written clear as day in the text. Wow…. can you say Wow
Thank you for this article it is a real eye opener. I will be taking your advice on board. As a thought it seems to me that the descriptions and quotes you talk about are in effect sexual grooming tactics and are highly illegal in both the US, UK and Europe. Just because they claim it to be part of their religion’s practice dose not make it right in any way shape or form. I am disgusted and would not hold any respect for them or any Pagan or Witchcraft practitioner who condones such practices. I am amazed they have been aloud to have their “church” sanctioned as an official organization by any government. It makes me ashamed to be pagan!
The Frosts aren’t really sanctioned by the US government. That’s some doubletalk they us to make their organization seem more respectable than it really is. The US government doesn’t sanction any church or religion in any way. To do so is a clear violation of the first amendment.
What the Frost’s got was IRS recognition. The IRS doesn’t charge what they define as churches taxes, and ministers can also be exempt. You don’t need to be recognized not to pay taxes, but the requirements are a bit subjective, so some churches go through the process so they can be sure, one way or another, if they have to pay taxes, Being recongized also helps donors figure out what they can and can’t right off as a religious donation.
The IRS rules look at a lot of things, like how active the church is in political activities and what sort of revenue sources it has. The goal is to make it so a company can’t just call itself a church and not have to pay taxes, and to make it so churches can’t get out of paying taxes on their secular business activities, which would create an unfair market advantage for churches in any industry they entered.
One of the things the IRS doesn’t look at is the actual spiritual practices and beliefs of the church. At least in theory, as long as it’s a spiritual organization, the IRS can’t delve any further into what its spirituality entails, because to do so would be a violation of the 1st amendment.
As for the Frosts, what they did with the IRS was largely a tax dodge. They’ve pretty much made it so they own and earn nothing, so they pay no taxes, but have their livelyhood paid for by the tax exempt church they control. Any other explanation they’ve made up is BS. They’re tax dodgers.
if ur ashamed to pagan then leave i am getting off here now because the only thing i am ashamed of is the narrow minded mindset of people on here seeing only half the picture
I’m ashamed of you, Christopher, for thinking anyone has the right to sexually abuse a child. Children cannot give consent. Stop oppressing them.
Well said, E! The Frosts remind me of American prisoners who have sued for the right to practice Voodoo and slaughter animals in prison. They do not understand boundaries.
Because I worked for them, they received a salary of 1000.00 each Thursday back then and yes they avoided the IRS and made evryone sign a sub-contract document stating all were responsible for filing their own taxes. None were sub-contracters! I left in March of 1994 after they left their so called gods/godesses in my house to kill me which I discovered while still there they worshiped demons. They had a boat company I was forced to work at- I never wanted to work there since it wasn’t my job qualifications. I listened to so many of their lies and believed in them.
I should say also that
[SRA Bullshit removed by moderator. Did you really think this was a good place to quote scripture? Use your god powers to return to 1989 when you were still relevant.]
[Deleted by moderator]
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. Fuck off.
I had the opportunity to attend a mixed panel discussion last year where Gavin and Yvonne Frost were featured speakers even though many in the Pagan community had shunned or simply banned them. (shouting out YES to the event organizers that invited them to that panel discussion)
Honestly at the time, I felt honored to listen to them as they spoke even though I really didn’t know who they were or the controversy surrounding them. Their conviction of “good” really shined.
It’s been some months since then and I do admit that when first reading more of them and their beliefs on female “intiation” and the outpouring of others calling them pedophiles, I did feel very umcomfortable.
You know though… I’ve thought alot about that topic. I’ve thought alot about my first sexual experiences and have come to the conclusion that If I had a choice to do it all again I would much rather have been “initiated” into “sex” in the manner which they hold a belief in rather than the ignorant manner that I was.
At the very least that experience would have been sacred.
thank god SOMEONE HAS SOME SENSE
It’s not “sense” to justify overriding the wishes of a child and forcing your sexual perversions on them. They don’t want an old man, anyway. Leave the kids alone. They want to be with attractive kids their own age, not you!
Olive, please stop feeding the troll. You’re only encouraging it.
Don’t justify pedophilia. Children cannot consent. Leave the children alone.
Being both a Wiccan priestess and a counselor specializing in the treatment of sexual offenders, allow me to offer a different perspective for you to consider. First, the idea of “consent” has to be looked at from many angles. Sure, a 13-year-old girl can verbally say “yes” to sex, but does she understand what her “yes” means? Does she have the level of maturity, the emotional development, and life experience to truly understand what her decision entails? The short answer is “no.” When two adolescent peers have sex, they do so in an uninformed manner, however they are equally uninformed, which is why it’s not abusive or illegal (this varies by state, naturally). In cases of a minor having sex with an adult you also have to consider power differentials, which ALWAYS stand in the way of actual consent. In this case, not only are we looking at a power differential based on age, but also on authority. These adolescents are looking to join a spiritual community and they are required to engage in and observe sex acts prior to and during ritual. Unless they do this, they are not allowed the spiritual instruction and community they seek. Even if they were adults this is, by definition, coercive sex. It is especially wrong that this would be done to minors who don’t fully understand their options and who have no way of understanding the negative impact this could have on their lives.
You talk about your first sexual experience being “ignorant.” I acknowledge that we, as a society, do a very poor job of educating children and adolescents (and adults) on issues surrounding sexuality while at the same time we glorify it openly. We could do better in both arenas. But a father penetrating his daughter’s vagina with a dildo? Adults having sex in front of minors? Having a “sponsor” (probably an adult) engage in sexual acts with a child? This is not education – it’s abuse. And just because the abuse is happening for so-called religious reasons, it does not make it sacred. Also, most of us have “ignorant” first experiences but we are probably not traumatized in any way by this ignorance. Living with the memory of watching your parents have sex, your mother breaking your hymen, and your father using a sex toy on you, however… traumatizing. Traumatizing in ways many of them won’t recognize because they were brainwashed to believe that it was for their good, that it was sacred, that the naysayers are just bigoted narrow-minded people.
Lastly, I want to say that this whole idea that someone “seems like a good person so they can’t be a sex offender” is naive and dangerous. After all, we (as a society) only let our children spend time with people we trust and believe to be “good people,” yet our children continue to be sexually abused. Almost every person I assess and treat – all convicted sexual offenders – seemed like good people to everyone around them. Their families and friends couldn’t believe they did the wretched things they did because they just seemed like “good people.” They often can’t believe it themselves. Oftentimes, it’s the very “goodness” they exude that lets your guard down and convinces children to trust them that puts them in situations in which they can sexually offend. It’s a hard lesson.
thank you Lisa, well put.
Well said. The Frosts’ supporters have become so blinded by the moon and sun that they’ve lost the ability to see right and wrong when it’s there in front of them.
Well Stated Lisa! Rob, Thank You for writing this! I have been part of the Pagan Community for over 20 years and this is the first time I have ever heard anything about it. HOW can we, as a community, still keep these two people on a pedistal as spiritual leaders?!
Lisa’s comment already said most of what needed to be said, but I just wanted to add that as an adult, you can idealize what kind of sexual experience you would rather have had as a child/teenager all that you want- that doesn’t mean that you should get to decide for other, existing children (not adults) what their sexual experiences should be, and that it would be better for them to be raped and molested and subjected to incest than anything else.
I can only (mostly) give you heresay.
I have a friend who’s former coven mate studied with the Frosts. At one point he noticed his coven member carving a wooden dildo and was told that it was for the daughter’s Womanhood ceremony. At which point my friend’s buddy ran screaming from the trad.
Additionally a former student of mine had paper documentation from his correspondence course with the Frosts. That paperwork clearly said that in order to be initiated, my student would be expected to sleep with the High Priestess. Umm no, that’s not consensual sex between adults, that’s molestation and forced sex. Want to initiate? You better be ready to get laid, no matter how creepy the HP/HPss might be.
Yes, I personally saw this paperwork. No, sadly I didn’t retain a copy.
And let me say that these groups aren’t the only ones who practice this. My original friend mentioned above was importuned to have sex with her High Priest. I won’t mention names, but according to her the coven involved was a rather infamous one located in Salem. According to her some of the words used were, “I can’t wait to have you.”
And yeah, if you wanted to initiate with them…no choice. Sleep with their elders or forgo the degree.
Disgusting. Our Lady says “all acts of Love and Pleasure.” Forced sex is neither love nor pleasure and is an anathema to our path.
Thank you for an eloquent, well thought out post. Very refreshing.
I, too, have seen the course the Frosts were using as of about 1979. And yes, sex with the High Priest or High Priestess was required. And all the kids-with-dildoes stuff was in there, too. If I still have the copy, it’s probably buried very deep in storage; but I remember it well, because a prospective student brought it in to show me what background they already had in the Craft.
i know what you have written is true, having read the book decades back when i was new to Wicca – it says what you say it says.
j/L “Granny” Matrika
I stumbled upon the Church & School of Wicca’s website tonight while looking for resources on Wicca, which I would like to learn more about. I was immediately put off when I clicked on the link for “initiation” (it’s very easy to find – just go to the school’s link). I was dubious at the mention of the word “initiation” because it just sounded so WRONG in the context of Wicca, like you can’t be anything other than a tourist in Wicca unless you officially join some church and take their courses and pay them money and it clearly implies that sex is part of the initiation process. Oh, along with killing, skinning and eating a wild stag (!!!!) OR raising a child for five years OR working on a farm for two years. WHAT THE …??? That prompted me to search their names and I found this article. As a “neophyte” I am glad to have found this article, and am also glad to see that my natural instincts of “ummmmmm NO” were correct. People like this, trail-blazers or no, give modern Wicca 9and traditional Wicca!) a bad name. Thanks for writing this.
Great article. Very informative and accurate, with one exception. AJ never burnt the effigies of the frosts. He did however stuff pages of their book up their effigy backsides at the end of the ritual. The main point of that ritual at the Real Witches Ball of 2007 was healing for victims of child abuse, rape and incest.
No, I have not personally met them. My mother warned me about them years ago… as any good mother should about sexual predators.
It is not the magickal community that bothers me. It is the couching sexual abuse in the language of the community that is so disturbing to me.
They may deflect all they want, but girls are maturing faster than even 40 years ago. Precocious puberty is common in my family as well as the onset of our talents at an early age. I, myself, started puberty, by their very definition, at 7 years old.
Isn’t that food for thought?
I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
I think what Amanda is saying is that if a girl starts puberty at a far younger age than normal (such as 7 years old in her case) then according to the Frosts she would’ve been eligible for “initiation”.
will the writer of this blog please contact me privately
so glad this popped up just as i was getting ready to sign up for classes! I have had a lifelong fascination with Wicca and would like to start studying seriously,but as a new mother I don’t want to invite any unsavory practices into my house. Any thoughts on how to find legitimate teachers out there via correspondence or otherwise?
I have an article about finding a teacher here:
The host site, Witchvox, has lots of contacts for every state; some of them might be good. Also, Facebook may have a Pagan page for your state or city, and Facebook also has a Wicca and Witchcraft Teachers and Seekers page, and my friend Taffy has a page there with resource info for Pagan parents and kids. Enjoy!
This makes me even more creeped out by the wooden phallus I found out in the forest.
Hi… Rob, could you please send me an email? Would lkike to talk with you about a number of things, the Frosts (and other predators) being among them
“Blinded by the Moon and the Sun.” Yes, of course I plead guilty of that.
We do all love to hate that which is outside of our conditioned perceptions of right and wrong. Blessed Be.
Sorry but I’m having some difficulty understanding you. For the record I am in complete agreement with your previous post. When I was talking about people being blind I was referring to those who support the Frosts, not those who are rightfully critical of them. I was simply saying that those who support them have let themselves be hoodwinked and have conveniently ignored their attitudes about children (or even agree with them).
I am a Wiccan (Green, solitary, egyptian focused eclectic Witch). I have been told by fellow Wiccans to NEVER purchase this book. They are a disgrace to the faith! I will also never practice in a coven for this reason. It only takes a few sickos to join and put you and your faith in a compromising situation. This is disgusting. Thank you for sharing this and not saying that Wicca in general is crazy. It is sad when people like this make up their own rules and disrespect and slander something that should be beautiful. I literally feel like puking right now.
I’m sorry to hear that you are avoiding Coven work because of some people like this. I hope it doesn’t keep you away from open Circle work. Gathering with other members of faith is a great way to bounce ideas, make friends, and celebrate as a community. I personally do not practice in a Coven because I have not found one that I fit in, but I do host open Circles and have found a fantastic many that enjoy the group work in a safe environment where we honor the God & Goddess together without the demands of a Coven.
I very much enjoyed reading your post and the recent challenge to inappropriate tolerance. I would like to point to the fact that not only did Gavin and Yvonne Frost write the book, they have been clear that it contains the founding rituals for the Church and School of Wicca, that they practice what they preach, and that they are the founders not only of their own tradition but of Wicca itself.
I have gone the route of discussing the details of the book, of the home made dildos that fathers are advised to use on their prepubescent daughters, how the onset of puberty can be 10 years of age, on how the dildos are to be made with nylon (a modern invention) so it is impossible they were speaking of an ancient custom.
But none of that is really significant at this point. What is important is that the movement is evolving away from inappropriate tolerance. People have started to recognize there is a difference between right and wrong and they have started to speak up.
I invite any questions or comments to my personal blog. This topic is found at the following link:
Blessed be and Live Free
Hello: I am the present editor/publisher of Green Egg, which I restarted back in 2007. I would like to point out that the writing Oberon did re: the Frosts was a long time ago and I have never endorsed them nor would I. Whle Kenny Klein wrote for Green Egg for 30 yrs, we have made a statement saying that we do not endorse Kenny or child molestation. We won’t print any of his writing and have taken down references to him from our website. I knew him from festivals etc. but never had heard any of the charges about him molesting, until he was arrested 2 weeks ago. I am horrified over the whole thing and that we ever published anything by him.
Oberon is the founder of Green Egg and at the time of this writing had not been editor or publisher of Green Egg since about 1997, we’re talking about 15 yrs ago. Basically, the staff mutinied and took over the magazine. I do not agree with all of his views, especially when it comes to having appropriate boundaries re: minors in the Pagan community.
I am forming a council, The Council of the Phoenix, to deal with suspected and known child sexual abuse in the Pagan community. It will serve as an information clearing house, will provide crisis counseling and we are developing guidelines for festival organizers in how to identify, deal with and prevent child molestation. As a Jungian-oriented psychotherapist who worked for non-profits and the county for 16 years, I had to deal with child molesters and most of my clients were people who had been molested as children. I have 16 yrs professional experience in this area and want to bring this experience to the Pagan community. For far too long, many have ignored the child molesting in our community. I want to raise awareness and find ways to deal with this problem. If anyone is interested in joining the Council of the Phoenix or in just contributing ideas and being part of the discussion, you can join us on our email list. Please contact me at:
Merry meet i am wiccan i pratce wacca i never seen anything writen by the frosts i started with them for a short time had to stop could not aford it .i was shocked to read what you wrote here wicca states DO NO HARM that is how we wiccans are to live and use our magic.if this makes me a non wiccan. In the frost’s. Eye’s then get a good pair of classes .i am waccan and proud of itthe non waccan they best look in a mirror they are doing wrong plane. And simple.to the writer of this blog i speek now keep up your good work they wount get away with this for long now…merry part boyd
Hello. I am a British citizen (legally) resident in Virginia and have lived here for a few years. I have been a witch/pagan/wiccan for almost 30 years now. When I lived in the UK these “Frost” people not known of, (by me and many of the pagan community I belonged to groups called The Pagan Federation. The Pagan Council and locals pagan groups. I acted for a short time as a Pagan Chaplin in the town where I lived and belonged to a Intra Faith Group made up of many different walks of spiritual and religious paths.) If I may, please, can I add the names of some wonderful trusted women who new people to Wicca may find helpful to read? The great women that to me were (and still are) of great importance to the teaching and learning of witchcraft/wicca/and pagan practices. ALL OF WHICH CAME WITH THE LAWS OF “DO AS THY WILL BUT HARM NONE, AND NONE INCLUDES THYSELF: KNOW THYSELF AND UNBOVE ALL, LET NO HARM BE DONE TO NONE. AND SO SHALL IT BE”. (meaning this shall be the laws to all, for all of life to be protected, as ALL life is sacred. It also means do not be a victim nor victimize anyone NOR CAUSE HARM). I learned this laws from my only coven and from reading the books of these great women. The late Dion Fortune (I strongly recommend all of Ms, Fortunes books for historic value and how witchcraft was “shared” as story books during her time on earth, and how these story books are still used as good teaching aids to educate and entertain at the same time, which helps to retain the information.) The late Doreen Valiente is my personal Lady Hero within the Craft. (Again I strongly recommend ALL books by Ms, Valiente. She believe that Wicca was about equality and respect for the Goddess (which is manifested as respect for the female/women on earth as an equal to the male/men and to bring a balance to the overtly male focused pagan/witch-crafts by teaching all men to respect the female aspects of themselves and womankind.) There was also another wonderful woman called Vivanne Crowley (no connection to Mr. Aleister Crowley). Her book was my first introduction into Wicca many years ago. (Wicca: The Old Religion in the new age.) I have often felt lonely here in the USA and have tried to find like minded people to chat with and enjoy the Craft with, but all too often I have found a lot of inappropriate “hidden agendas” from people. I want to thank all of you for this posting and all the views stated here. Each point of view says a lot to me about how the Craft is still very vulnerable to being abused, misrepresent and exploited by wrong doing people in many ways. I hold on to positive hope that what goes around comes back around, and that we pay for all the wrong doing behavior we do in this life, as we live it. No one is above the LAWS in so many ways than one! I will make sure that the link to this page is sent to the UK and made known about. I will ask my (spiritual) family & friends in the UK to be aware of the Frosts and of their Church of Wicca. Please may finish with this, there is no such thing as a “Church” of “Wicca”. Its a COVEN that witches and Wiccans attend. (All Wiccans are Witches but not all Witches are Wiccians). And none attend a CHURCH of any form of Witchraft! I know things are different here in the USA, but hear me now, Church’s of Wicca will never be taken seriously in the UK or anywhere outside of the USA where the INTERNATIONAL PAGAN FEDERATION has a say. Please stay safe and keep your children closer to you. I am sorry that people here are being hurt/abused/victimized. As witches you if you know how to cast a spell of protection and illumination on those who case harm in the name of the Craft? Wait for the next full moon and do so, as I will. May The & Brightest of Blessings Shine Bright on you and yours. May the power of light and dark be in perfect balance to aid your will. May the protection of the Goddess be ever with you, and keep You & Yours Safe For Evermore and SO SHALL THIS BE DONE. DJN.
The book is for sale on Amazon now!
How anyone contacted Amazon about the inappropriate content?
The more I read about these people (frosts and they like) the angrier I feel. Child sexual abuse is NOT part of any spiritual or religious teachings or practices. Why are some people having difficulty with this. This is no different than a catholic priest being investigated for child sexual abuse within the church. I can not and will except this as attitude and behavior as a “normal – healthy – positive environment” for anyone least of all the innocence of younger children/teens. Why hasn’t Social Services been involved with this? If you know if this happening (and have witnessed it for yourself) why haven’t “you” called the police and reported these people. I support all those who stand against these horrid and abusive child abusers and yes – I WILL call these “frosts and their like” CHILD ABUSERS. CALL THE POLICE NOW! Stop just talking about this and do something about it! This would NEVER happen in the UK so why is it happening here. AND Its was the late Doreen Valiente books that teach the real truth about history and witchcraft (including Wicca – which did NOT originate in the USA but is wildly more popular than the other pagan/witchcraft’s in this day and age. Please do not get blinded by what you read here start with Doreen Valiente’s works: Where Witchcraft Lives. Natural Magic. Witchcraft For Tomorrow. The Rebirth of Witchcraft. An ABC of Witchcraft Past & Present. Witchcraft: A Tradition Renewed (with E.J. Jones). OR Wicca – The Old Religion In The New Age by Vivianne Crowley OR read any and all of Dion Fortunes books. Start here and stop waisting your time with anything else. If you are anti-British then start with with a great STARHAWK – The Spiral Dance. A Rebirth Of The Ancient Religion Of The Goddess. Please: Leave these “frost’s and their like alone. If you are truely seeking a path alone then start reading the above named books and know seeking alone doesn’t mean isolated, it means you are solitary. Never Alone!
Makes me happy to see you and others as angry as I have been. I have felt so alone, started to wonder if maybe I really was nuts, maybe it doesn’t really matter, maybe the people telling me to shut up and “stop judging” were right. Then I see it, plain as day, people like you clearly stating what I thought was so obvious.
There is no excuse, never any excuse. Children are vulnerable, innocent, and should be left out of such acts. I have seen people who call themselves occultists promoting Crowleys idea that children should be exposed to “all manner of sexual acts” (that’s hardly the worst he recommends for children) and then everyone on the forum acting like I am nuts and laughing at me for being enraged by it.
I’ll say it again, it makes me so freaking happy to know I wasn’t the only one, I was just staring into a dark void. Glad to see that occultism itself is not a dark void, just a paticularly sick and disturbingly common pocket of humanity.
But just to note, it does happen in the uk. You even suggested a book from a Crowley kid, which seems oddly fitting. Crowley practically brags about how he abuses children.
“No that was symbolic”
Yeah ok, “take blood from a young male virgin” is so obviously symbolic. Sorry, that can be used to defend anything.
IIRC, Vivianne is no relation to Aleister. I’m glad people are finally taking this issue seriously. Blessed Be.
Did not know that, my bad. Yes this is an issue I’ve been angered by for a while. The crowley thing I bring up because it’s another person who people defend simply because they like his practices (practices he did not actually invent and yes he “gave them to the people” but not the masses as people claim, considering he also felt it must be hidden in symbolism to keep out uneducated or underclass people) but you don’t need to throw out practice with a person. It’s possible to just admit that Crowley drugged and raped people without having to quit all magick. It just annoys me that people feel the need to defend pedophiles and rapists because they like a book they wrote.
Since i am a direct desendent of gerald gardner i think this is shit gerald gardner along with his partner founded wiccan in the early 60`s and the frosts are full of shit
A vein is a blood vessel or a distinctive style.
Vain means self admiring or futile. (The term in vain means without success).
A vane is a stabilizing fin or blade.
I agree wholeheartedly. I have been a practisioner for about twenty-five years, around twenty of it as a Solitary. My Dad, unfortunately, sees only great things, but I learned of their depravity early in my education. They are a blight on us all, the stigma we have striven to be apart from, personified. Fucked up motherfuckers are no better than the hypocrite Christians that they howl against. Just like me Seanathair always said, “Boy, those who clothe themselves in good deeds are easily camoflaged”.
Thank you for helping to expose these two!
I knew Gavin 75 years ago when he was studying for his degree at Wolverhampton Technical College. (Not at Kings College , London) He was a bright lad and got a London External BSc (second class honours) in General Science. (He later studied for a doctorate while working at Windscale for the Atomic Energy Authority). He seemed a pleasant, sensible and honest lad. How he got mixed up in this sort of life is a great mystery to me.
Old Gold, if what you claim is true, that would fit in with Gavin’s secondary, contradictory biographical detail, that he’s used several times: “Gavin Frost, BSc, PhD, DD. Born, reared and formally educated in Staffordshire, England.” [As supplied by Gavin to the Florida Pagan Gathering, according to their webmaster].
However, 75 years ago would be 1940. Perhaps a bright lad indeed, but he would have been only 10 years old, according to his Wikipedia birth date.
Do you have any actual, verifiable proof that he “studied for a doctorate while working at Windscale for the Atomic Energy Authority”?
For about 30 years in all his biographical material, Gavin’s been listing himself as having “BSc, PhD, DD” as his academic credentials. The Pagan biographers I’ve heard from so far all say that Gavin told them he got his B.Sc. through Ph.D from King’s College London. None of them tried to independently confirm it.
Yet when I asked, Kings College London archives said they had no record of Gavin Frost or Sidney Gavin Frost ever attending that school. Their library database shows no dissertation by him.
According to Gerina Dunwich’s book The Modern Witch’s Complete Sourcebook, the DD degrees that the Frosts claim are ones they gave themselves. The Doctor of Divinity degree is the highest academic degree awarded in the UK, but is usually an honorary degree in the US.
Bumping my questions 4 years later, in case there’s a chance that DJ Noble (Old Gold) will see and answer the questions I asked in response to his comment, about the contradiction regarding the timing and place of Gavin’s alleged college education.
Great article, though could you spell Isaac s name correctly?
I have been speaking out about the Frosts for decades. They are perverted sexual devisnts that should have been imprisoned years ago. I work in a metaphysical and occult shop and have vehemently told patrons what disgusting pedophiles they both are. Herman Slater was right. The only mystery to me is that why has not the pagan community banded together for their complete annihilation? They are monsters.
Thank you! I have felt so alone lately. I’m glad to see I am not the only one disgusted by people like this.
I’m an occultist and practicing magician, but I completely removed myself from a reddit community (r/occult) which I loved all because I started to see the dark underbelly. It started when I freaked out over a woman bragging about how she used a spell to manipulate the dreams of a guy and make him “come back” to her, even bragging that he now does everything she says. Even if she is just nuts, the thought disgusts me. It made me freak out because the response from others was “oh cool, tell me how” and then defending her and acting like I was nuts for being angry, they love to say “oh you think this stuff is real? You stupid?” While also angrily defending magic as absolute reality to non believers, so clearly dishonest people.
That was just the start. I quickly started to notice people promoting pedophiles and people who kidnapped, brainwashed, and raised children in the name of some twisted magical tradotion. All the while mocking me for thinking it was wrong, even imitating me jokingly in other threads, because I was such a big joke. I was done with Crowley and all the other overhyped child abusers and rapists. It almost turned me off to magick but something told me that turning my back on the power means they win, because they want it to remain in the hands of abusive people like themselves.
I started getting more serious with my practice, turning my anger and hatred into inspiration and drive. I practiced on my own by trying as many methods as I could and figuring out what worked for me. After what I saw, I would never and will never trust anyone to be a direct spiritual guide in absolutely any way.
I was honestly starting to think pretty much all of the community was abusive or defenders of the abuse, so I am very happy to find this. It makes me so happy to not only see people as angry about these twisted acts as me, and on top of that also making it clear that females are also capable of abuse. The idea that any female could ever be an abuser in any way was so funny to them that it was another thing they mocked me for, even accusing me of hating women (always telling new people on the sub that it was “my thing” and to ignore me) simply because I hated how female abusers were celebrated as powerful or clever.
I guess what I’m saying is thank you so much for posting this and showing me that the magick community is not all like that. Makes me feel like maybe one day I really could share my practices or thoughts on magick with other magicians again.
What angered me the most is how effective they were at hiding it, how they would claim one thing in front of new users but then in a more “niche” subreddit (like the Thelema one) they would expose their real thoughts that it’s OK to manipulate and control others for your own selfish desires, claiming if it can be done it is their true will, the exact opposite of what the same users said in front of newer people who asked concerned questions.
I hate seeing abusers who are good at playing people, good at manipulating others and getting public opinion on their side.
It makes me so happy to see an occultist fighting for what is just (since these children and people manipulated into these cults are absolutely victims deserving justice) and a group of commenters who agree that it’s wrong.
Sure, we can see the standard abuse defense force here, but that is to be expected.
Thank you again.
The site you linked to with the offending ritual, has since gone down.
However, the Internet Archive grabbed a copy of it before this happened. It can be seen here:
Mr. Frost has passed away.,
And may the worms gnaw upon his soul until the suns go dark.
Just wanted to say that I was fully with you until you wrote about bookstores ‘they will claim the have no control over book ordering’ – as someone who works at a bookstore I can say we generally LITERALLY have no control over ordering. If we aren’t the book person – we have none.
The only thing we can do, if we are concerned about a books information is to discuss it with the book person or the owner. They may have to climb up people at head-office to find out who can actually do something. So, you see, it’s not a run-around – we are trying to find someone who can help with question at hand because we want to help, not to annoy you in any way.
Please just remember that the person you are talking to in a bookstore is most likely a salesperson, not a department head. Their role is to sell product, know where product is and have a general knowledge about the product. They will get someone who they think will be able to help you – but it’s not a guarantee that the person they get will have that authority either. But they will try to find someone who can until they find someone who can, if they can. So please, it’s no ‘claim’, it’s the actual truth of their position in the workplace hierarchy.
Whilst in modern times such as today. Childhood has been extended. But there was a time in our history of origin. That pretty arranged marriage and so on was practiced. So I’m not condoning The Frosts if they actually participated in these practices. As you have said “( there is no proof)” of guilt. And this is America. Where the Judicial rule of thumb is innocent until proven quilty. I wish now that while I owned the book I had read it. (But I did not). Turns out I think all bibles very boring telling one how to be perfect in an imperfect world.
Here is the important part. Old spell books guimures were handed down from generation to generation. And let’s not forget the witch hunts. It’s all inclusive to putting together a bible. Of any kind it’s based on history. And past events first , thus leading to a future.
I do not know what made you wish to pursue The Frosts in such a fashion and so much hatred? But you sound obsessed about it. They are old and Gavin Frost dead just this year. I am in total agreement that it should have that passage adhered to modern times. But the Amish put their children to work as puberty comes as well. Other countries still today see it as a rite to passage into adult hood. The native Americans surely did the same. First alone hunts. Trials where they were given payotie to smoke. And taken to a cave to ride out the high connection of dream state to connect with their god. So taking in all this information from days and times of old. They might have refused to obliterate their ancestors beliefs. It does not mean they were practicing it. I mean you do have have Roman Catholics and just Catholics. The cross shows the difference. The Amish are Amish. And do break away from tradition and old ways and are called (neophytes? ) due to change.
I am new to paganism/Wicca/witchcraft and still researching, learning the details, differences, etc. One of the first google search results for Wicca beginners is the site Exemplore. The author recommends that beginners read the Frost’s book The Witch’s Magical Handbook.
Quote from exemplore:
“I am not a regular fan of Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Some of their ideas about wicca, and some highly controversial ideas about sex, have garnered them a lot of criticism, and rightfully so. I don’t normally defend them in that, or recommend their Witch School at all.
That said, I have to give credit where credit is due. This book educational, insightful and understandable. I would offer caveats: this is not the typical ‘white-washed’ Wiccan-style stuff you’ll find in the Llewellyn 101 books. People fed up with the Watered-Down approach to Witchcraft will probably appreciate this book, as will students of The Craft seeking true understanding.”
Because I’m naturally curious, of course I wanted to know what their controversial sex ideas were. I googled them and found this blog.
I think “controversial” is a pretty mild word for their ideas about sex. I think “controversial” sex ideas would be more like- – sex in public places. BDSM. Furries sex in animal mascot costumes. Pedophilia & incest are more like: disgusting and horrible ideas about sex. I feel so bad for anyone that had that initiation. When conversation with friends turns to the awkward loss of virginity stories, some poor girl has to say “my mom broke my hymen and then my dad fucked me with a dildo he carved out of wood.” And then the high priest. The alcohol is actually kind of merciful- so the kid can get through it. Horrible. No girl wants to lose their virginity to their mom and dad and an old man. When you’re younger than 16, everybody over 25 is OLD. I’m in my 30’s, but I still remember this clearly.
Even if everything else the Frosts wrote about Wicca is good, I still see no reason why I should read their books when there are other options. I don’t want to have to read around the pedophilia chapter. That’s fucking stupid. Or even if the pedophilia chapter is in one of their other books, I don’t want to read a handbook written by them. It’s pretty aggravating that the Frost’s book is recommended to me and other beginners. It’s like- next, I’m going to build a house using an old construction manual that says to install asbestos and use lead paint.
If Wiccan writers/bloggers/organizers/etc. would start recommending other handbooks and schools/teachers to beginners, than gradually any mention of their names would get pushed to the 2nd page of search results. And nobody looks at the 2nd page.
This came out like just a bitch rant, and I forgot to say that I think this blog is great
Just to note for the sake of accuracy, in Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s instructions the high priest does not ritually rape the 12 year old initiate. That job is delegated to “the most recent coven initiate, though if there is too large a differential in age or physique [penis size], the coven elects special sponsors.” The sponsor, no matter how inexperienced or ignorant, is also given the job of advising the 12 year old on contraception (the Frosts recommended IUDs). At the time of the initiation the child will rapidly become drunk on the full glass of mead that is given, having fasted for the past 3 days. During that fasting period, the child is to watch a couple selected by the coven have sex (“demonstration of introitus,” as the Frosts so delicately put it).
I have not looked into the value of their more general magical advice. Their policy of teaching that ritually raping children is a part of their religion is so vile that nothing else they say can have any value for me.
Are you ,sir, a christian?
religious people also sexually abuse children.( the church ,for years, have paid”hush money” to the parents of the harmed children to stop them from suing them). stop being a snowflake& start looking into this instead…
just because youre in a jewish religion you cowan, doesnt mean you can make fake rumors about Wiccan authors, youre a pedophile troll that thinks its ok for a christian to rape but not Wiccans, youre a pedophile and you put the blame on others for your actions, admit it youre a pedophile